You know, we talk a lot about privilege here and acknowledging it and doing what we can to make sure FA doesn’t get bogged down in the same shit that feminism does – because, dude, feminism (and, yes, I’m using dude ironically there) has some shit to unpack when it comes to acknowledging some shit.
Inevitably when we talk about privilege, someone asks, very sincerely, what to DO about it. HOW to acknowledge it and there’s usually some discussion about that.
People, this is what not to do.
THAT is reveling in privilege and saying how, really, it doesn’t make THAT big a difference even though, oh wait, it really does.
I’m sorry – I should be doing a better job of unpacking this but I want to go to the mall.
And, yes, that is another example of IRONY.
Here’s the thing – acknowledging your privilege should not be an assault on other people’s lived oppression. Their oppression does not negate the shit you as an individual have experienced. Your shit does not negate that you have privilege. Acknowledging privilege can be really uncomfortable because it really goes against the whole by-your-bootstraps-success-is-a-reward-you-earn ethos. But that isn’t actually reality – we don’t all start on a level playing field. Me being raised in middle-class, white America means I have a very specific frame of reference. That frame might vary in small ways from person to person – individualism being what it is. But acknowledging that doesn’t have to be a big defensive maneuver on my part. I can own it without feeling put upon, without feeling like acknowledging it further oppresses me.
Owning my privilege does not oppress me. It makes it easier for other people. I don’t know, maybe that isn’t everyone’s goal. But I’d rather make it a bit easier for someone else when so many other things are harder.
Don’t be a dick, y’all. Don’t do that.
86 Comments
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
That is all for now.
That was definitely my initial response. *grin*
I HAVE PRIVILEGE AND I KNOW IT, SO THAT MAKES IT ALL OKAY.
*facepalm*
Thanks for posting this while I was too busy sitting with my mouth hanging open in disbelief. Ideally that link would make this sound when you click on it.
I have more to say on the subject (SHOCKING, I KNOW) but will save my wordiness for my own blog.
I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR WORDINESS.
That’s one of the best examples of not understanding privilege in the intended context I’ve ever seen.
(and that was a very bad sentence but y’all probably understand what I mean.)
When talking about privilege it is also necessary to be able to disassociate from your specific circumstances. And that takes a specific kind of intelligence.
Privilege does not negate compassion.
Aaaaaand, I will stop there.
Privilege does not negate compassion.
I like that SO MUCH. Thank you.
Will I get slapped down for making a “tone argument” if I express that really, privilege is not the best word to be using to make the relevant point, because just about EVERY newbie completely misunderstands what it means and goes off on a crazy rant about how their life is not “privileged”?
Srsly. Every time I see someone first introduced to the concept of privilege, they hear something totally different than the very important information that’s really trying to get across – about recognising that you have some advantages, others may not have them, and that lack affects their experiences.
I don’t know if it counts as tone to talk about the actual language of the conversation.
There’s been a lot of time spent explaining this at the 101 level and I know it is going to need to be repeated ad nauseum so I’m cool with doing that generally. Just… yeah, not this time.
I think it’d be fine if we wanted to introduce the concept under some other name and then unpack why it is referred to as privilege – but I think that needs to happen within ally communities, you know?
Please take it from me, and years of experience (and calls for people to use a word other than: privilege, racism, profiling, feminism, etc.)
It does not matter what you call it, people are defensive about the very *concept*. No, really. No, it *really* does not matter. *Really*. “Privilege” is *already* a euphemism. The more you sugarcoat it:
A) It really, really doesn’t matter
B) To the extent it might matter to .00001% of the population for whom another word might actually make the topic more palatable and understandable, you are likely to miss reaching at least that many people for whom the word “privilege” would have more resonance
C) But it really doesn’t matter
D) No, really, try it
E) And notice how few people make these complaints ever even have a suggestion for a replacement word– and think about why that is
F) And further consider that, while there might be some merit at times to, say, not cussing a body out, in general, the more you sugarcoat things, the more you delay the inevitable defensiveness– i.e., while a “nicer” word (though “privilege” is already a pretty nice euphemism) might make privileged people more comfortable and agreeable at first, I *promise* that once they do get the gist of the concept, they are going to be just as defensive. Who needs allies that temporary?
G) It really doesn’t matter
So much WORD.
Thanks Marianne–I too wanted to here Lesley’s trombone. There is definitely a sense in which I filter the notes from the fatosphere links when I see title I know I will not enjoy. But, since you wrote about it I did go and look and man, I think I need to trust my filtering instincts and stick with those. You do an excellent job with the idea of privilege here. I teach it to white middle class undergrads and they often sound a lot more like the link, but when they get it, I think it really makes them start to look at the world in a much more critical way–and that makes it worth it!
It’s such an incredibly important conversation to keep having. I tend to think it is a simple concept – we don’t all start from the same position – but it can be so hard to talk about without getting defensive.
Thank you for teaching it!
I can’t . . . I don’t understand what that blogger was trying to get across. I say that totally nonconfrontationally. I don’t understand it.
It put my back up. I have an incredibly privileged life, even though parts of it suck, and if asked, by Christ, fuck yes I would admit that I have a privileged life. And I haven’t got the privilege that person has.
I don’t understand at all. Can someone explain what she was trying to say? Because I’m stumped.
I’m with you, Naamah. I read it again and I’m still baffled.
I think she was saying she has these sorts of privilege but doesn’t see what she can DO about it.
I also think the comments brought out some good suggestions, such as recognizing that her own experiences may vary from someone who’s (for example) fatter or less conventionally attractive etc.
As a biracial person (black mother, white father), a person that a certain judge in Louisiana thinks shouldn’t exist, I am one of those oppressed groups Bianca apparently disregarded.
I don’t think she disregarded me.
Frankly, there are more things to get outraged over than someone honestly stating they have a good life and they’re not ashamed for it.
Acknowledging privilege doesn’t mean you are ashamed of having a good life. It means acknowledging that there are societal systems which are unfairly benefiting you, and oppressing others.
You may want to read this blog post (http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146) about what privilege is (and isn’t) and what to do about it.
Dear FA, this is why we can’t have nice things. This is also why more POC aren’t involved in FA. Ditto for members of other marginalized groups. How can people not link the question of “why is FA full of not very fat white middle class ladies” with the attitudes in that post and the commenters?
I will now leave a helpful link
http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146
“Check my what? On privilege and what we can do about it.”
Thank you for the link!
The Link Ninja she has struck.
THANK YOU FOR THAT – seriously.
The post on ZaftigChicks was really painful for me to read. I think it goes against what every social rights movement is trying to accomplish. Acknowledging our privilege where it exists is the most important step to fighting for equal rights for all.
One: I don’t think that concept means what she thinks it means.
Two: How obnoxious.
One thing I think I’ve nailed down that rubs me the wrong way – and tell me if I’m sniffing something others can smell – that “I’ve acknowledged it, and so now I’m done.”
Plus the whole conflating “privilege” as a social justice term with how you FEEL day-to-day. That’s the tricksy bit, friends: Privilege is invisible! You don’t notice it! Argh.
Off to lurk some more.
Yes, that really bothered me too.
Also the way that she basically said “I have all of these things that people tell me are privileges, but, really, what have they done for me? Gotten the bartenders attention at a bar?”
Because that is what oppressed groups are fighting for – attention at a bar.
*headdesk*
Yeah, that particular part really reminded me of the whole “Sure, street harassment sucks and you have a really good chance of getting raped at some point in your life, but hey, look at the size of your tits, I bet it’s not hard for you to get free drinks hurr hurr hurr!” line of “reasoning” familiar to me from many interactions with clueless fucking dickwipes.
I think the main part of irritation for me, after spending hours agonizing over it (seriously, I couldn’t sleep last night because of it lol), is the assumption or suggestion that privilege is…fluid? I realize she lists her appearance as a part of the privilege, but I’m not sure if she – and I could be misunderstanding still – really understands that even if she’s not in her tax bracket anymore, she will still exert an enormous amount of privilege.
Then again, she admits she’s new the concept and good god, it’s not like it’s an easy thing to accept or understand or explore. So a lot of the misunderstanding/confusion/irritation/frustration could be the result of the nature of the thing. If that makes sense.
Um, somehow the sentence I typed made no sense. Good job, A plus for me.
What I meant: I think the listing of privileges comes off as an END to a conversation, instead of the beginning of something. Not the right direction to go in.
I agree with Emmy that the word “privilege” throws some people, especially those who are unfamiliar with the academic definition. Those who are not tend to confuse it with being privileged, i.e. leading a relatively easy life, born with silver spoon, etc. I try to explain to people that having privilege X does not automatically mean you have it better and easier as an individual than every individual who does not have privilege X. All it means is that there are certain things you don’t have to think about because they won’t be a problem for you. There are probably dozens of possible privileges a person can have, and various gradations within each, and which qualities are most “prized” often depends upon context. (Just ask our President.)
Unfortunately, there’s really no reliable balance sheet for determining who is “better off” based solely on a random list of privileges versus unprivileges, other than to state that a young, tall, chiseled-featured, slender-but-muscular gentile WASP cissexual straight athletic Christian male who is 100% able-bodied and 100% standard-brained and has comes from a loving, supportive, affluent family with no drug or alcohol problems and extensive higher education and business connections, and is happily het-married with 1 to 3 kids, probably has it easier than most people. I suppose there are a few people like that left, somewhere.
THANK YOU.
We’ve been talking about privilege lately in a student group I’m in and it makes me nervous to see someone being all “Hey, I’m pretty and white and awesome and my life is a lot better than yours and I don’t give a shit, wanna fight about it? I’ll win with my awesome privilege!”
I just think she missed the point on the whole check/acknowledge-your-privilege thing.
I didn’t get the impression that she was trying to be all “oh wow I’m so pretty and white and you’re not you suck.” I think she was just thinking about privilege as it applies to her. She’s not saying these things make her better, just that these are things which do apply in her situation. Doesn’t the fact that she recognizes that she has some advantages make it more likely for her to consider that other people may not have the same privilege in these areas? As for her tone, that’s just how she writes. She’s irreverant and I don’t whether that’s being misunderstood or deliberately disregarded as a way to make a point about privilege in general.
Also, from following the ZC blog, I kind of get the impression that the writers are still trying to figure everything out for themselves. I don’t see how calling someone out as a “douchebag” promotes a welcoming atmosphere. I rarely comment on these blogs for fear of being called out simply for disagreeing or using a poor turn of phrase. I understand the point that was trying to be made with this post, but I think the way this was handled was probably more off-putting than anything in the original privilege post.
I completely agree.
the thing is, SC, youre kind of NOT welcome if you are being a deliberately obtuse jerk. you cant stand up and demand to stop being oppressed because youre fat, and then continue being oppressive.
I read the post on Two Zaftig Chicks before I saw this, and although I did not fully understand the point of the post, it did not rub me the wrong way the way it obviously did with you. I have no clue what ticked you off so bad about it. She acknowledges her privelege, but says she doen’t feel she lives a priveliged life. Sure the distinction could have been made clearer, but I think we all understands what she means, don’t we? Or maybe I should say that those of us who have privelige (which seems to include you) understand what she means. So I do not understand why you feel her acknowledging her privelige is an assault on other people’s lived oppression. She’s clearly trying to own her privelige, even if she doesn’t accomplish that task the way you would like her to.
And just to be clear, accusing someone of not wanting to make things easier for other people – that’s a dick maneuver.
The religious education director at my church made a wonderful analogy to explain privilege to the (diverse but largely white) congregation:
She lives in an apartment, and there are tenants living above her. Young, male tenants who are sometimes up at all hours, having a party or clomping around.
She’s not mad that they have the upper apartment. She doesn’t want them to move out. They’re not bad people because, when they went looking for a place to live, the upper apartment was where luck put them.
She *does* wish that they’d think about what impact their late-night actions have on her and her partners. She *does* want to live in a world where she feels safe going up to knock on their door and say, “Hey, it’s midnight and we’re trying to sleep, could y’all keep it down just a bit?”
Good neighbors apologize, say they didn’t realize they were that loud, and turn down the radio. (*Really* good neighbors remember this in the future and don’t have to be asked again.) Bad neighbors say ugly things, slam the door, and crank up the stereo.
It made the point without anyone being put on the defensive. I thought it was excellent.
I think this is a really good analogy EXCEPT that it puts the onus on the “downstairs neighbor” to call attention to the really loud music and stomping in the first place.
My addition to make it complete: Really REALLY good neighbors realize that they’re on the top floor of an apartment, and don’t play loud music or jump around after 10 pm or before 8 am.
Yes, however sometimes when people have never had neighbors below them (as far as they know/never talk to them/etc…) they really just don’t know that their being jerks with stomping and the loud music.
Seriously, some people whether we’re talking analogously or literally don’t see it/understand it and need a wake up call. Being able to deconstruct privilege isn’t something most people just know how to do.
Crap. No edit:
PS I say this not being a fan of ZC. They’ve rubbed me the wrong way on many of their posts and I generally don’t read them at all.
I’ll even go one better and admit that the analogy doesn’t get into why we have to have apartments that are more comfortable for some tenants than for others.
But we do. We can look to a future world where adequate soundproofing is part and parcel of every brownstone, high-rise and garden apartment, but right now, some people got thin walls and floors.
Yeah. I read that post as saying “I have a good life, and YEA ME! and I’m not going to be sad about my great life even though I know some other people’s lives suck!” It was a total understanding of what privilege means FAIL. I know that’s already been pointed out, just wanted to add I saw it that way too.
Maybe some distinction between privilege and entitlement should be made? Privilege is what you start out with, race gender, social/economic status etc… entitlement is how you behave regarding your (or society’s) assumed advantages based on your privilege.
But maybe I didn’t really get it anyway, interesting comment thread though.
from what i’ve read at zaftig chicks, they are very new to the realm of feminism and fa and that post seemed genuine to me.
they are not, by their own admission, academics. they do not have the language to discuss the issues. that post said to me, “ayup, my life is privileged. i’m at a point where i recognize it, even if i don’t entirely understand it. so, help, how can i live my life in a better way?”
i’m giving them (although i think it was bianca that wrote it) the benefit of the doubt on this. granted, there are better ways to be educated on this than writing a blog post like that and simply saying “help,” but, it still strikes me as genuine, albeit naive.
The thing is there is a TON of information out there about privilege. Simplying googling “what do I do about my white privilege” gets you a variety of resources. Walking into a library and asking a reference librarian for help would get you tons of resources. Doing anything other than rolling around in your privilege would get you resources.
Asking someone to google it isn’t that much to ask.
Adults take responsibility when they are ignorant and do something to change it.
I felt that the post was an absolute straw man.
The author is claiming to not understand something she understands perfectly well, as an excuse to rant about something that bugs her.
It’s very passive-aggressive behavior.
The author should not be ashamed of her privilege, anymore than she should be ashamed of being fat.
But understanding our privelege helps us to understand how we “see through the glass darkly” to (probably mis)quote Khalil Gibran.
To reach out to others, it is important to understand our own biases.
Or see the world through rose colored glasses even. If you don’t experience certain things because you’re white, or middle class, it’s easier not to see those things happening to POC or poor people.
Just curious, how do you know she knows the subject perfectly well?
Gibran may have used that somewhere, but the original comes from the King James Version of the Bible.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
I think what bugged me about it was the title and the first few lines. It really reads as bragging, and there’s nothing to indicate sarcasm. “I’m better than you aren’t you jealous” is er, not the most wonderful way to start a discussion on privilege.
This post is a classic example to me of how sometimes it is better to stop talking for a little while and listen. I think that one of the big downsides to blogging is that there is no barrier to entry. People tend to just start writing before they actually have anything new, interesting or valid to add to the conversation. (I totally include myself in this.)
From Bianca’s post:
So my question is, what do I do with all this knowledge? And, yes I am serious. I acknowledged it. I can’t change it, and I don’t want to. I am not sorry for what I have, and I think it would be patronizing to wish others had it, or even want it.
I think the bold part is what bothered me the most. For me that statement negated any good natured misunderstanding and put the post squarely into the belligerent category. Sure she is gamely asking what to do with the knowledge but then follows it up with a foot stomp and pout with: “buttttt I can’t change it! and I don’t wanna!”
And, can I just say, that the last part about “it would be patronizing to wish others had it”. WTF? Are you serious? You have a house, clothes, car, food, stable income – and boy that would be SOOOO patronizing to think other people may want those life sustaining things?
However does she find parking for her high horse?
I thought she meant it would be patronizing to assume others would want to be white, blond, married, her height/weight, etc.
It would certainly *be* patronizing to tell a deathfat lesbian POC “Oh but if you were just white and blond and thinner and married to a guy with a good income your life would be fine!”
@ Living400lbs
Okay,yeah in that context I see what you mean about the patronizing.
The way I read that bolded part, although I certainly agree that it initially can come across as you interpreted it, is that she’s trying to say that she is okay with who she is and doesn’t want to change that, but she wants to know more about the issue of privilege and how to make a difference in empowering others.
And yes, there are plenty of people who aren’t interested in your average middle-class lifestyle and who would NOT want what Bianca has, so implying that they would is being patronizing and assuming that her worldview is right.
I think it was awkwardly worded but not intended to be offensive, so I’m sorry that her words have come across that way, because I think she meant them genuinely.
That web site reminds me of We Are The Real Deal 2.0. Now with more FAIL!
You’re totally right about that comparison. It immediately reminded me of the Barbie post on WATRD, though I must’ve been in a patient mood today, as I actually tried to reply to Bianca. Not that I think it did any good, but, y’know. It was worth a try.
That web site reminds me of We Are The Real Deal 2.0. Now with more FAIL!‘
Complete with slams at Kate Harding. Ridiculous, the lot of it.
I have to admit to some amusement at the “Men Bad” tag for the post, as well as the “Men Bad” categorization of the argument in question in the post that seems to have been the ‘inspiration’ for this post. Talk about over-simplifying the argument.
Now certainly there are different points of view and different reading demographics for blogs. But I don’t see any of the guys from Living Colour or Public Enemy trashing Stravinksy, if you get my analogy (even though I will freely admit it’s somewhat widely drawn).
It seemed like there was some jealousy too of the “Why does HER site get more comments than MY site” variety — I seem to remember gleaning that Bianca and Sylvia were somewhat upset at first that their blog wasn’t getting a lot of comments, so of course someone whose blog gets that much more attention, especially if they’ve also written a book, must automatically be Teh Evul.
(Or perhaps I just spend too much time on LJ.)
I still fail to see why Bianca’s post is so offensive. Because she doesn’t want to change anything, that makes it bad?
I think many of you are straining to find something derogatory in a post that really isn’t, and trying to create more drama and dissent.
The Fatosphere doesn’t benefit anyone from trying to shut down other non-trolling opinions that don’t agree with majority mindset.
@ Bree
Perhaps your failure to see why some people are offended can highlight something you yourself need to unpack. I am trying to write this in as gentle a way as possible, because I do agree, attacking non-trolling opinions isn’t useful, and I don’t think you’re trolling.
However, people’s response to Bianca’s post has run the gamut from harsh to kid gloved. And I would say yes, because she doesn’t want to change anything that makes it bad. The reason I say this is because Bianca wrote an entire blog post outlining her privilege, asks what she should do with her knew knowledge and then stoutly says “f-u I like my life the way it is and I’m not willing to change any of my behavior.” and then goes on to belligerently attack those who posted thoughtful responses on how she could unpack that privilege.
I will grant there was some muddying of the water because of some trollish comments on the original post, but I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the people who have a gripe about her post.
By saying that we are “straining to find something derogatory in a post that really isn’t” you are effectively trying to silence those who are saying they are offended by this post.
I think many of you are straining to find something derogatory in a post that really isn’t, and trying to create more drama and dissent.
You’re welcome to your opinion. I think that this post revels in privilege and will alienate many people who would benefit fat acceptance by their presence and be benefited in turn. What purpose does a post like this serve – other than to say, “I got mine”?
that post said to me, “ayup, my life is privileged. i’m at a point where i recognize it, even if i don’t entirely understand it. so, help, how can i live my life in a better way?”
I did get that out of the post, but that was only after pushing myself through the impression I got on the first reading, and only after giving a boatload of benefit of the doubt. If the initial tone and reading screams “I’m privileged and happy about it”, and it takes careful dissection for a large number of readers to see anything but that, it seems like a very poor example of writing to get your ideas across.
I got that right away. Didn’t have to push myself at all. I agree with Veronica, and disagree pretty strongly with TR: I think this is a very important conversation to have, and that’s what Bianca was doing. Having it. “Okay, I’m privileged. I’m not ashamed. Now what?” The idea that so many people are offended by that boggles my mind. So we’re supposed to be aware of our own privilege but we’re… not supposed to talk about it? Okay…
Hrm – it reminds me of this:
http://kateharding.net/2009/05/21/welcome-a-sarah/
I thought of exactly that post too and mentioned it specifically on my post in response to this whole situation.
GOD THAT SHAPELY PROSE POST OMFG.
It was disgusting. I wanted to go vomit on people
And th-th-that th-th-that th-th-that’s all, folks.
Huh. When did Miriam and Kate become the same person?
Wait–I’m Kate? Or do you mean some other Miriam became Kate? Because it’d be some trick if I became Kate while I wasn’t looking.
Do I get royalties?
This morning, in the shower, I suddenly realized you must’ve meant:
“When did Marianne and Kate become the same person?”
The funny thing about that is the last time this came up (around the time that SP made some vague, non-specific nod toward one day including someone other than young, white, women without disabilities and with male partners on the masthead), I got slammed by the SP folks because obviously I was the only one seeing a homogenizing trend happening as a result of Kate’s “I hang out with people who like me/are like me” management of SP.
Though Marianne’s not on SP, she and Kate are easily conflated by readers because they share similar ways of thinking, drawing from similar source texts (texts I rather like, actually), and it’s no insult to either of them (or the other SP writers) to say that their writing styles are likewise very similar (unlike, for example, NudieMuse and Marianne, who are stylistically and content-wise very different). I expect that common style and language must help when co-writing a book, as if you don’t have that in common, you’d need an editor who can rewrite through your individual prose in ways that keep it from being disjointed.
None of that means that it makes any sense to dismiss what either of them say because they happen to agree, write in similar ways, or draw from some of the same background readings–and each other–in approaching FA and feminism.
Or rather, if it did mean that, you’d have to dismiss a whole lot of other writers as well (myself included) simply for having read Susan Bordo.
“I think many of you are straining to find something derogatory in a post that really isn’t, and trying to create more drama and dissent.”
Why does that sound so much like “I just think ‘you people’ are looking for something to be upset about” dropped down in the middle of a discussion about sexism, or racism?
No. Never mind. You know what? I know why.
*shakes head*
*walks away*
“I think many of you are straining to find something derogatory in a post that really isn’t, and trying to create more drama and dissent.”
Why does that sound so much like “I just think ‘you people’ are looking for something to be upset about” dropped down in the middle of a discussion about sexism, or racism?
No. Never mind. You know what? I know why.
*shakes head*
*walks away*
Littlem, you are clearly putting words in my mouth. Did you not read my first response?
If some of us who identify as minorities aren’t getting riled up over this post, shouldn’t that be more important, considering you and everyone else here are thinking Bianca is disregarding supposedly other oppressed groups?
You’re letting your rage blind you.
But Bree, that turn of phrase makes it sound like you think the ’some of us who identify as minorities’ get to speak for *all* people who identify as minorities, and that’s an end to the matter. Not to mention that (don’t jump on me for this) your use of ‘blind’ could be read as being very offensive…
Generally speaking… I just found this Zaftig post weird because it took me a while to figure out what was going on. I think I get what Bianca was trying to say, but unfortunately I’d also have to agree with those who had problems with it — the issue for me centres around the ‘I don’t want to [change it]‘ and the ‘mine is better than yours’ title. Yes I get that’s meant to be a joke, but it puts a specific spin on the rest of the post’s content, which could have been very interesting (and a lot of the comments did engage with the question of what to do that was posed). So mostly, I was left confused as to the point of the post, because then it seemed like it was just designed to snark at other sites (not just SP or the Rotund) that spend more time talking about privilege, for doing that talking. Although it was put forwards as a request for discussion as to what to do about it… yet the ‘I don’t wanna change’ (kind of flippant) sentiment kind of suggests that Bianca might not be so interested in changing things for anyone, because she’s ok thanksverymuch. It was very ‘that’s life-y’ to me — maybe Bianca acknowledges her advantages, but posts like that seem designed to confirm to those who don’t, or don’t really, that they don’t *need* to.
But what would I know. I like reading SP and the Rotund as well as all the other sites I visit. Must smash on the really popular high traffic sites, huh. People who like them just have ‘hivemind’…
Julia is also “getting riled up” over this post, and she self-identifies as black and queer. Marianne is white and married, don’t know if she self-identifies as straight or queer, but she self-identifies as “teh deathfatz”, as does Lesley. Living400lbs self-identifies as, you know, someone who is 400 pounds; I don’t know what her racial or sexual self-identifications are.
Those are just the people whose self-identifications I know who have already posted here who felt that the ZC post was inappropriately marginalizing of them. I am rich and white and size 14/16 and married, but I self-identify as queer, and yeah, it pissed me off personally on that front.
It also pissed me off as someone who works hard to acknowledge my privilege in many arenas that Bianca framed the issue as though she was somehow expected by others to play Lady Bountiful and “give away” her privilege. To me, that’s a reductive and inappropriate framing.
I understand that your reaction differs from mine, and from Julia’s, Marianne’s, Lesley’s, and others. I honor your reaction, because it’s yours.
But assuming that everyone else here is white and straight isn’t the best way to make your point.
Just to add that I am queer too. There is not one person who identifies as/is part of a minority who gets to speak for all others and say “I wasn’t offended, so this isn’t offensive”.
I identify as/am a minority and I was offended. You identify as/are a minority and you weren’t. We’re both entitled to those reactions, but I’m not trying to tell you how to think or what to post, whereas you’re trying hard to tell us what we should and shouldn’t say. “Trying to create more drama and dissent?” Really? “You’re too angry/seeing something that isn’t there” is a very well-known silencing tactic, and I’m not interested in having it used against me here.
I don’t know the ZC from a hole in the hedge, but Bianca put something on the fatosphere feed that I and a bunch of others in the fatosphere found offensive, and we’re having a discussion about that, which we’re entitled to do. Obviously you’re entitled to be a part of that discussion. But please don’t ascribe motivations to me and others that we just don’t have, and don’t try to use that to get us to stop talking.
Privilege is a tough thing for people to get, acknowledge and own, one that I’ve been giving a lot more thought to since I started reading in the Fatosphere, but once I got it, my only thought was “Well, of course.” It seemed so obvious to me.
I’ve been trying to explain the concept to my white male hubby who grew up in extreme poverty to one of those seemingly mythical welfare moms who refused to work, only it wasn’t a myth in his case. He doesn’t buy it, because it’s not been true for him, he says. We have had several heated discussions about it. The other night, I raised my voice about it. It got pretty tense. I don’t know how we make it clear without making it blame, because people seem to take it that way. For me, recognition of my privilege is a trigger to my gratitude. Yeah, I got a lot of what I have through my efforts…but not ONLY my own efforts. And it’s only fair to acknowledge that.
Okay, me? I’m mainly here for the fat talk. Mostly I find Bianca and Sylvia’s blog a bit too random, fluffy and lite for more than a cursory glance, (though, as someone with an uneasy relationship with her middle, I rather enjoyed the belly posts). However, I’ve quite enjoyed some of the discussions around their reactions to the hardcore fatosphere – because there is a genuine difference of opinion going on which I do feel is lacking elsewhere and, for the most part, there’s tolerance and respect for those differing views.
I won’t lie. I just want everyone to get along – unless, of course, they really are some concern-douche spoiling for a brawl. And I care way too much what people who espouse my views about fat think of me. (Because a) I’m sometimes pathetic and b) I believe that those of us who want to make the world a better place for fats should not be falling out; we need as many people standing together as possible if we are to make so much as a dent in public consciousness never mind a genuine difference). But I said it there and I’m going to say it here too:-
Not everyone involved in FA is an academic or, for that matter, a feminist; not all women come to feminism as a result of reading the approved tomes or doing degrees in Women’s or Gender Studies. Expecting everyone to understand the nuances of rarified language is going to come across as snobbish and condescending, especially when delivered by intense young folks full of missionary zeal – at least it seems that way to me at 50. I don’t get involved in these discussions because I find them exhausting, alienating and dull.
Tell me about your experiences as an individual in any oppressed minority of your choosing and I will gladly listen, learn and empathise. But lecture me about my perceived privilege as a means of educating me and I will bristle … because it’s rude and presumptuous. Try to guilt-trip me on behalf of an oppressed minority of which you are not a member and I will find myself wondering if they’ll see you as an ally or a patronising git. I didn’t, for instance, become a gay ally by reading worthy tracts or attending lectures but by growing up surrounded by my parents’ gay and lesbian friends and getting to know them as individuals. I never once heard the term “straight privilege” yet somehow I managed to see all manner of injustice all on my own.
“With rare exception, non-privileged individuals do not hate privileged individuals, but we do hate how many privileged individuals act! Learn to take criticism. Learn to not deflect it with excuses about how the non-privileged person is just angry, hateful, etc. Even if the person in question is angry, hateful, etc. Even if you, personally, don’t act that way”
See this is where I seriously get the pip. The “don’t take it personally even if someone is launching what feels remarkably like a personal attack” thing. If someone tells me I’m expected to carry the can for white cultural imperialism, dead bleeding right I’m going to make that All About Me. I’m Jewish. Go far enough back in my history and my forbears were slaves; go back a mere hundred years and they were peasants being pogrommed out of their shtetls by cossacks with swords they weren’t afraid to use. I’m third generation British and have fuck all to do with colonialism or the slave trade and I shouldn’t have to suck up somebody else’s misdirected anger or snotty condescension because of the colour of my skin or the fact I was born in Britain. Big Liberty is right. We are all individuals and making sweeping generalisations in any direction is divisive.
ETA The reason the issue of privilege gets people riled up is because
it comes across as confrontative and accusatory to many, many people – as has been played out time after time. Not least when there is a measure of anger attached to it, (shit, you should hear me screeching at the radio every time some ignorant fat-bashing moron starts preaching to the fat hate choir). As a tool of education the Knapsack Of Contention is plainly ineffective. Please, can’t we find another way to communicate with one another because, if we don’t, we’re going to lose a fuck-ton of soldiers FA NEEDS.
I’ll start this out by saying that I believe acknowledging privilege is unnecessary. We have all had it shoved down our throats (especially those who spent a great deal of time in the deep south) that, in being white, we are privileged. By having disposable income, we are privileged. Being male is another privilege. Being heterosexual is yet another.
Honestly, there is nothing I can do about my privilege. I sure as hell won’t be ashamed of who I am and where I came from. Someone who screams “But you’re PRIVILEGED!” intends to make me feel that way.
There were always ‘power imbalances’ in society. There always will be. There will always be oppressed people. It’s the ‘You VS. Me’ dynamic. It is a human trait – a survival mechanism, to protect the ‘tribe’.
Not to say that we shouldn’t try to change things. But first we have to acknowledge human nature. Societal Homogenization will do no one any good…it’s just a Communism of a different color.
No one is asking you to do anything about your privilege. What is being asked of people is to do something with the knowledge of your privilege . Knowing that my job, my socioeconomic status, the car I drive come from a place other than my own bootstraps and that so many others work just as hard to arrive at a much different destination for reasons such as race, weight, gender is the salient point here. No one is advocating that I give my money away or apologize for my privilege. What is asked of me is that I work toward a system that minimizes my own privilege – fight stereotypes of POC, fat people, people with disabilities – use my vote in ways that fight discrimination and promote fair hiring practices.
Yeah, sure. Acknowledging your privilege is the same as communism. It would be terrible if we all had a level playing field and the same chance in life. People working for equality are really out to shame and oppress you, not to lessen shame and oppression for others.
I’m glad you saw through what we were doing here. I was sick of the red uniforms anyway.
“I’m glad you saw through what we were doing here. I was sick of the red uniforms anyway.”
In Soviet Fatosphere, red uniforms come in super-size only. But everybody gets free belt to hang self with!
In Soviet Fatosphere, there is no “inbetweenie.” There is only Us and The Dirty Capitalists Diet Industry!
In Soviet Fatosphere, red uniforms wear you!
*grin* Caitlin, I continue to admire your sarcasm. I’m sick and feeling red-shirty (in the Trek sense), but your comment made me smile.
In my mind I keep seeing that episode of South Park where Stan (white kid) keeps trying to tell Token (African American kid) that he “gets it” about an aspect of racism. Token keeps telling him that he doesn’t get it. Stan keeps insisting that he does. Finally Stan realizes what a jerk he’s been and tells Token, “I really do get it now, I. DON’T. GET IT.” He finally got that he didn’t get it. Make sense?
THAT is what recognizing your privilege is about. It’s not about insisting that you get it. (No, really! I do!) It’s about finally being wise enough to understand that YOU DO NOT GET IT.
That post was about someone REALLY not getting it. Yes, she was trying to be honest. Yes, she was trying to understand (I think). Sometimes, when you don’t get it? You should sit in the corner QUIETLY until a low-flying clue smacks you upside the head.
This stuff is sometimes not so easy to absorb, especially for those who haven’t had to face the same levels of persecution as others. Sometimes it takes a gentle guiding hand and every so often it takes a firm, hard kick to the assbone for it to sink in.
Please, can’t we find another way to communicate with one another because, if we don’t, we’re going to lose a fuck-ton of soldiers FA NEEDS.
You are right, we do need these soldiers, but we also need these kinds of tough discussions. Especially when it comes to the newbies. Think of it as basic training. If they can’t handle the daily shitstorms in these “safe” places how are they ever going to survive an all out attack out there in the haters turf?
The people involved in this Fat Movement thing are pretty tough folks because we’ve had to be. There is anger at injustice that causes tempers to be high, frustrations just from day to day living, old wounds festering, new ones being opened up almost daily. It’s pretty fertile ground for dust-ups and misunderstandings. Crabfests like this are going to happen and it ain’t gonna stop. If one can’t hang with the “big girls” maybe they need to find some nice, quiet, ladylike little movement to be a part of. Maybe The Advocates for Cloth Napkins Instead of Paper are looking for members…
(yes I know this post is a bit old but oh well)
I think that one major issue with understanding all the theory out there is that western culture is very individualistic.
When we start talking about privilege, advantage and disadvantage we tend to take that on and focus on our own lives and the people we have direct contact with.
But the basic theories around social justice is acknowledging that society isn’t a land of equal opportunity and that members of society are being oppressed just simply because they are who they are and most of the time being blamed for their situation.
I see it as a very holistic idea (as in seeing society as a whole) not one easily meshed with individualism.
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[...] Recently in the online fat acceptance community, a newbie bragged about her privilege,got called on it, and in the comments I got linked to another example of damaging privilege as demonstrated by a [...]
[...] Recently in the online fat acceptance community, a newbie bragged about her privilege,got called on it, and in the comments I got linked to another example of damaging privilege as demonstrated by a [...]