Sweet machine (laura) pointed me at this post on Feministe regarding MeMe Roth and the use of “anorexic” as an insult for thin people. It is a GREAT article. And, you know, I have said this before, people – skinny people are not our enemy. Backlash isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Making fun of them for their size is EXACTLY the same as thin people making fun of fat people. Let’s not do that, okay?
Another thing, brought up for me by many of the comments I am reading in the world o’ blogging lately, is that I have no idea why so many comments are prefaced with disclaimers that give body stats.
Does it matter that you are 5′3″ and weigh 200 pounds when you are posting about how a dress from a particular manufacturer fits? Absolutely. Does it matter when you are responding to a discussion point that is using reason, rather than emotion, as a basis for “hey, this is fucked up?”
I don’t think it is. I don’t think thin people should have to justify their thinness. Particularly not against trolls, which is when it often comes up. “You are just a fat bitch,” says the troll. “Actually, I am dainty and petite,” says the person. And doesn’t that just play into the idea that fat is an insult? That being mistaken for fat just can’t be allowed to happen?
And when fat people give their stats, it usually comes across as apologetics in these sorts of discussions. A sort-of full disclosure so everyone will know that, of course, they are biased because they themselves are fat.
You know what? It doesn’t matter. It honestly doesn’t matter if you are fat and posting in a body politics/body acceptance/fat acceptance blog. It honestly doesn’t matter if you are thin and posting in a body politics/body acceptance/fat acceptance blog. Not when you are talking about things as basic as “It is not okay to replace oppression with further oppression.” Not when you are talking about “It is hard to love your body because it is impossible to conform to the cultural ideal.”
That’s not to say experiential evidence isn’t important. It totally is. But don’t use it as an apology or a disclaimer. Don’t cut your own argument off at the ankles like that.
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Just for the record, I would like everyone to know that I am a seven-foot-tall, 90-pound green speckled snooba, with size-12 feet.
Yes! I have had to explain to several friends since I started my “body acceptance” way of life that I am not against thin people.
I realize that I’ve thrown the term “anorexic” around a bit too casusally–usually in response to underweight-looking models who are being held out by the media as “ideal.” I should be more careful about that.
Off topic, I just linked to this blog for a “fat acceptance” post I did this morning on my blog. But truthfully, I’m fairly ignorant about the issue, and I hope the post isn’t offensive.
I’ve got a general health & fitness blog, and am trying to invite comment because I really don’t know what I’m talking about. (And so many weight loss blogs I run into in my travels seem fat-phobic; I hope I’m not one of them).
Anyway, I feel like I’m learning but am still fairly clueless, so any help anyone wants to offer is very much appreciated!
I noticed this in a thread I started on IndieBride about not losing weight for the wedding. Except for fellow fatshionista brown_and_blue, EVERYBODY who said they weren’t losing weight ALSO mentioned that they weren’t really that big, or what size they wore, or what their measurements were, or whatever. As though they needed to make excuses for not apologizing for their bodies.
“Don’t cut your own argument off at the ankles like that.”
So true. It’s actually distracting when people mention exactly what they look like: How much or how little space they take up in the world, as if that validates everything they’re saying. Physical statistics shouldn’t qualify the message. Your ideas need to be able to stand on their own no matter what you look like.
Hypothetical situation:
I have lain out a pro-gay-rights argument.
Troll: “You’re just a fat ugly dyke who can’t get a man.”
Me: “Actually, you’re wrong about that, I’m straight.”
By doing so am I saying there’s something fundamentally wrong with being gay? Or am I simply saying that one does not have to be gay to find homophobia repugnant?
By the same token, couldn’t saying that you’re “dainty and petite” and yet find liphophobia repugnant and stupid actually be a very powerful argument?
Not concerntrolling here, just askin’.
There are some cases where that might be a powerful argument. But I see it utilized SO MUCH and in situations that are not the same as your hypothetical situation.
Maybe part of why I find these arguments so ineffectual is that, as illustrated in your example, they necessitate engaging with trolls. And, at that point, no matter what you say the troll has won.
In the post I linked to, the 2nd comment includes a disclaimer. It isn’t responding to a troll. It’s not even really necessary info as presented. The poster doesn’t like the “real women” slogan (which I have talked about before) and I don’t know that it adds anything to her argument to tell us that she is thin, you know?
And, omg, I totally know you aren’t trolling. I am not expecting everyone to agree with me on everything! *laugh* That would be SO boring.
As a former anorectic, I’m somewhat offended when people casually toss around the term as an adjective for a skinny person. Would we describe a very skinny man as an AIDS victim? Or cancer victim?
Anorexia is a very serious disease, one which carries the highest fatality rate amongst women of all psychiatric disorders. When we use it carelessly and out of place, to me it cheapens the magnitude of the disease.
Rachel, I agree with you. It’s not okay to fling around the accusation just because someone said something that hurt us.
There’s an interesting discussion in that comment thread about anorexia versus anorexic behavior. What are your thoughts on that?
It’s all about the validation.
if i can convince you to believe the things i want to believe are true, that strengthens my own convictions. Convincing other people to make the same choices that you make will, in effect, validate those choices for you. No self-introspection or soul-searching required.
More often than not, this is not a conscious thought process, mind you. I do want to stress that point.
When someone has insecurities about their stance on something (height, weight, music, fashion – the list goes on), they will often find it necessary to think of their choices as The Only Way, and will make fun of anyone else who doesn’t follow (or at least try to follow) the same way. If i can only feel better about being fat by making fun of skinny problem, then weight is not the issue: the issue is my own discomfort with my weight.
Now, conversely, if i honestly do believe in my own convictions, then external validation is nice, but not necessary. I can be comfortable in my own skin without having to put other people down to feel better about myself.
I feel like terming “anorexic” as an accusation or an insult is what’s hurtful – like there’s a judgment attached to having that particular illness. Which is common, because it’s perceived as something one does to one’s self, on purpose, and therefore of course it reflects on one’s character. But when you’re in there, having the illness, you no more have the option to just NOT be sick than someone with diabetes or cancer or the flu. So even if someone really is anorexic (or maybe even more so), accusing them of it is pretty inappropriate.
I am sure that thin-bashing shouldn’t be OK, or the refuge of fat-positive people who feel under attack.
I don’t agree that it is “exactly the same” as fat-bashing.
Whether attained by hook or by crook, by genetics or by laxatives, by illness or by “willpower,” a slim figure carries more social privilege than a thick one. Criticizing the privileged from the margins is not exactly the same as doing so in the other direction, even if the tactics used for expressing that criticism are poor.
My thoughts on this aren’t going to coalesce well at nearly 2am with an 8am wake-up-call on the horizon, but I am rolling around a thought in the back of my head that is wondering if there is a link to the “reverse racism” accusation whites make toward people of color who do not couch their dissention and rage in “polite enough” terms.
There is no way that having attention drawn to one’s thinness, even in a mean or spiteful way, can carry the same kind of cultural baggage that having attention drawn to one’s fatness does. There may even be an individual experience of shame or hurt, particularly in the case of those who have struggled with ED or lack of breast development or serious illness that made them lose large amounts of weight, but this is not the same as the systemic attachment of shame that comes with every accusation of fatness, *even for those individuals who are accepting of their own fat.*
I think this goes back to invalidation of experience.
I know that when I wrote my guest blog post, I started by saying that I was an average sized person(should I not have? I don’t know.). But the reason why is because I didn’t want people to jump down my throat later by telling me “You aren’t fat! you don’t know what it’s like!”, when my entire point was that “You’re right. I don’t, but for purposes of this discussion, it doesn’t matter.” So I was very up front about it. I DON’T know. But I can see. And I can learn and I can respond in a positive way.
But I do like to be honest about it. Because though you know perfectly well what I look like, hey- not everyone does. *shrug*
I know you’ve experienced situations elsewhere that people are castigated within the fat community in general for not being “fat enough”.
I mean is there any way to approach this without getting your head handed to you on any side of the argument?
I kind of agree with bronxelf.
And I think there’s a difference between people entering a discussion saying, in essence, “don’t think I’m one of you, ’cause I’m not, and I wouldn’t want to be mistaken for one of you, because that would be embarassing to me,” versus a person trying to say, “I don’t want to presume to know what you’ve had to deal with, because I haven’t had to myself.”
I’m not heterosexual, but it doesn’t bother me at all when a straight person enters into a discussion mainly by/about gay rights and prefaces it with the fact they’re straight. Often people seem to do it repsectfully, to say, hey, is it okay if I comment here? And I actually like discussions where we’re not all talking to ourselves, but are talking to people who are coming from different places. And sometimes it’s helpful in these conversations to know who you’re engaging with.
(But perhaps there’s a bit of defensiveness on my part, as someone new here who wants to feel like its okay to be here regardless of size).
“And I think there’s a difference between people entering a discussion saying, in essence, “don’t think I’m one of you, ’cause I’m not, and I wouldn’t want to be mistaken for one of you, because that would be embarassing to me,” versus a person trying to say, “I don’t want to presume to know what you’ve had to deal with, because I haven’t had to myself.”
I guess that’s what it comes down to for me as well. It depends on what your point is, what motivation you have for saying it in the first place. The problem is, unless they go into detail, I can only guess why someone would feel the need to include that information, I have to trust that it comes from a decent place.
I don’t want to know about your specific body weight, race, religion, etc if it’s about separating yourself from everyone else involved in the conversation. That whole, “I’m here, but I’m not one of them, I swear” type of attitude. It’s different when it’s you writing on your own blog, but in my opinion it should be used sparingly when commenting.
It is more interesting to talk to people of all different sizes, backrounds, cultures, etc., but it’s not always necessary to know. Sometimes it adds to the topic, sometimes not. I guess that’s left up to a person’s own judgement. I would never want to feel that my size would qualify, or disqualify, me from even entering into the conversation.
I agree with the last few comments here. Starting any comment by saying you are of the privileged group in a subject like this because you are making a disclaimer (with a tone like, ‘just don’t think I’m one of THEM’) is not at all okay. Saying something like that because you worry that your privilege makes your comments inappropriate, or because you want to explain the background for your own comment because you know it will be biased by privilege, on the other hand, should be okay.
For instance, I might be inclined to respond to the original blog post by saying, “I’m very skinny, and while I can’t know what it’s like to be marginilized because of fat, I *do* know that being picked on ruthlessly from a young age because of my skinnyness (including regular insults along the lines of you-look-anorexic) was terrible for my self-esteem and made me hate my body for my entire pre-collegiate life. I think vilifying skinny people for their supposedly unhealthily anorexic appearances and fat people for their supposedly unhealthily fat appearances might also come from the same health-as-morality place, too.” I *hope* that wouldn’t be perceived in the sense of, “at least I’m not FAT,” or “my oppression on one end of the body spectrum is the same as that of fat people on the other end,” or “I have no privilege because I am skinny.”
My boyfriend is quite thin, and I’m pretty darn fat,and we think we’re both great. So nope,no problem with thin people here.