So, I was reading this entry at Obesity Timebomb about grey areas and inclusivity and thinking about a couple of conversations I had this past week.
I think I’m probably one of those people she has a problem with, one of those people who insist on a couple of defining lines when it comes to defining the political movement that is (or is becoming) Fat Activism.
This debate has been raging pretty much since the Fatosphere put on it’s blogging pants. It’s been going on, in one form or another, since the idea of fat acceptance first started gaining ground. It is, at its heart, the same debate that underlies the whole issue of whether or not feeders and gainers are fat pos.
It’s all about what fat positivity, fat acceptance, and fat activism MEAN and hope to accomplish as a socio-political movement.
Now, I’m all for inclusivity. After all, the reason why we’re all here is because we feel excluded, in some shape or another, by mainstream society, by the beauty ideal, by the concept of health, by whatever. And so I think it’s natural when the first instinct is to create a space that includes everyone of every creed and shape and color and orientation and defining characteristics.
And I largely support that. I think Fat Activism especially, as a political movement, only strengthens when we talk about issues of intersectionality, when we have a strong and diverse population representing different experiences, different classes, different lives.
But I also believe in creating a space where, for once, the dominant voice is that of the Fat Accepting Person. The size or shape of that person is irrelevant. The one important thing about that voice, for me, is that it is consistently a fat-accepting one.
The entire rest of the world provides a forum for the voices of People Who Hate Fat and People Who Are Conflicted About Fat and People Who Have Tough Choices To Make About Fat. The rest of the world (including a bunch of my coworkers) is happy to talk about Why Oprah Should Be Ashamed For Letting Herself Go. It’s happy to whisper with you about the size of your thighs and will nod in eager agreement when you say you can’t wear sleeveless tops, you just can’t because your arms are MONSTROUS.
The rest of the world will gladly commiserate when you need sympathy because dieting is Just So Hard.
The rest of the world will validate every hateful thought you’ve had about your fat. It’ll back you up when you say, no, but really, YOUR fat is bad for your health and you HAVE to lose weight.
I am all for inclusivity but I don’t want to have those conversations in my own space. I am buffeted by them every time I leave my house. Hell, IN my house, when I turn on the television or even the radio. I want one space in which the default view is fat positivity, even if that’s a challenge for some people.
After all, it’s not like dieters aren’t allowed to read and comment here. People considering weight loss surgery and people who have HAD weight loss surgery comment and participate here and it’s no problem.
But when dieters and people considering weight loss surgery want to make those conversations the center of attention? Yeah, no. That’s not going to fly with me. Not as a general rule (there are always notable exceptions). It’s the rare conversation on these topics that brings something new to the table. When that happens, I’m glad of it, but I’m also protective of the small space we’ve carved out for ourselves where we don’t have to constantly defend our choice not to diet or have weight loss surgery.
It’s not about factionalism. It’s about what fat activism and fat acceptance MEAN. On the most basic level, it means divorcing yourself from the ubiquitous message that fat is bad. And if fat isn’t bad, we’re under no obligation to get rid of it. In fact, even if it WERE bad, we’d still be under no moral obligation to get rid of it because my body is not a moral battleground – it’s my fucking body!
When I think of divisive factionalism, I think of the larger fatties who won’t deign to acknowledge the fat experience of smaller fatties. I think of smaller fatties who pull out the “well, that’s just TOO fat” trope. I think of fatties who pursue the mainstream ideal of health and leave behind those who cannot or have no interest in achieving it and I think of the fatties who don’t meet those arbitrary standards who turn their back on HAES and its practitioners because it MUST just be another message saying Good Fatty/ Bad Fatty in disguise. I think of people who perpetuate shape privilege and straight privilege and, yeah, goddamn white privilege and who don’t want to talk about what other characteristics might mean when it comes to fat experience.
I sure as hell don’t think about the fundamental definition of fat acceptance – accepting fat as a neutral value characteristic.
In this blog, and in the fat-pos spaces I prefer, we talk critically about the things society would have us all embrace without question, whether it’s fad dieting, shapewear (ugh, that’s a whole ‘nother post), weight loss surgery, or any of a million other topics. This space we’ve created is one of the very few places where you can HAVE a critical conversation on these topics.
Believe me, we’ve all heard all of the pros. It’s time to talk about the cons. I’m sorry that some people find that exclusionary but I’m also, as I said, protective of this space. I’m not going to go and insist that my Jewish friends have a conversation about how delicious ham is in their synagogue and I’m not going to rave about cock to my lesbian friends at the gay bar in the hopes of Just Making Them Understand My Point of View.
It isn’t about my point of view. Those spaces are not about my point of view so, really, I need to just shut the hell up about it. They’ve heard it. From other assholes who Just Want To Be Understood.
This idea that the complexity of chosing weight loss surgery never gets discussed in the Fatosphere is just so much hot air. It does. It’s not an every day topic but it doesn’t have to be. I’d love to see a blog on the feed that deals with that, but I won’t define it as a fat pos blog because having surgery to induce malnutrition to lose weight is not a fat pos action. When a former activist goes on a diet to lose weight, I may still dig the hell out of them personally and wish them well, but that is not a fat positive action. Yeah, they lose cred as an activist in my eyes. It doesn’t cheapen anything they’ve done before and if they work as an advocate, I’ll be thrilled. But dieting isn’t a part of Fat Activism. Neither is weight loss surgery.
Look, in the end, it comes down to a very old saying:
If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
We stand for fat positivity. For rejecting the constant barrage of societal messages telling us we’re defective, worth less, hideous, deformed, and a plethora of other adjectives. We stand for taking care of your own health, whatever your personal definition of that is and without it being a relative meter stick for defining your worth as a human being. We stand for doctors treating us with dignity and care instead of with weight loss pamphlets and canned speeches. We stand for goddamn options when it comes to clothes, ffs.
We stand for something. And when we stop standing for it, the whole community falls. For anything.
To be explicit: I welcome people who diet and who are struggling with the decision to have (or not have) weight loss surgery. I welcome people who have had surgery and are unhappy and who have had surgery and ARE happy. I welcome people who are thin and fat and every size and shape imaginable. I welcome people. But I do not welcome discussion about dieting. I do not welcome discussion about how great it was to lose weight via surgery. I do not welcome, as a general rule, discussion about why we really SHOULD consider weight loss surgery – because I’ve heard all of that and what we’re discussing here doesn’t ever get any play anywhere else.
If you feel there is no space for people who are struggling with the decision to have (or not have) weight loss surgery, I highly recommend creating that space. It will be infinitely more valuable than highjacking this space for that conversation.


29 Comments
:::wild applause:::
I can’t put into words how much you (and the Shapely Prose crew) have helped me stay sane during my recent “adventures in pre-diabetes.” I only thought I had put most of my disordered eating and thinking behind me.
YEEEEES. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES.
It’s like an old feminist struggle, isn’t it? “Well, I like to perform at strip clubs, and I’m a feminist, so stripping must be a pro-feminist act.” The song remains the same, only the verses have changed. It’s one of the things I’ve been dealing with personally – I am a feminist and fat positive, and I have to stop justifying non-feminist and non-fatpos actions to make myself feel better. It doesn’t mean I have to necessarily stop doing them, but I have to stop claiming that they are value positive.
Awesome post. Just great. Thank you!
I agree.
I am increasingly in favor of drawing quite a strong line in the sand, over which one can*not* cross, over which our message would be degraded, our time wasted, and so forth. I’ve lately been contemplating militant fat activism – I know many FA bloggers would be opposed to this truly radical notion, but the best way to get one’s message across is not to try the best one can to assimilate and undermine. Why assimilate in the first place? Why put up with the constant barrage of hate with a smile? It’s not lowering oneself to the level of a hater to stand one’s ground, and vehemently.
Thanks for this post. You’re right that this issue is as old as the blogosphere (and probably older, but I’m not much of an FA historian), but in that same sense it’s important to point out that line in the sand when some people start to forget its importance, why it was drawn in the first place.
After all, it’s not like dieters aren’t allowed to read and comment here. People considering weight loss surgery and people who have HAD weight loss surgery comment and participate here and it’s no problem.
Yes…
When I think of divisive factionalism, I think of the larger fatties who won’t deign to acknowledge the fat experience of smaller fatties. I think of smaller fatties who pull out the “well, that’s just TOO fat” trope. I think of fatties who pursue the mainstream ideal of health and leave behind those who cannot or have no interest in achieving it and I think of the fatties who don’t meet those arbitrary standards who turn their back on HAES and its practitioners because it MUST just be another message saying Good Fatty/ Bad Fatty in disguise. I think of people who perpetuate shape privilege and straight privilege and, yeah, goddamn white privilege and who don’t want to talk about what other characteristics might mean when it comes to fat experience.
…and double yes.
Until the basic principles of fat acceptance becomes more robust in the general culture, we will have to continue to protect a space that preserves it. It certainly doesn’t make us all, as individuals, ideologically pure, but it provides a climate in which those ideals can survive, and be strengthened through discourse (such as when we talk about intersectionality.)
To make a weird metaphor about grey areas, grey itself cannot exist unless black and while first both exist as relatively “pure” properties, in roughly equal proportions that can be mixed together. If you only have a single drop of white in a sea of black, when you mix them together, well — what you get ain’t grey.
You’re smart ‘n’ stuff.
I found the “fatosphere” while searching for reasons as to why my weight loss surgery was not working for me as it appeared to be working for others who had it done. It became a turning time in my life and within a few months I had my surgery reversed to be “normal” once again.
I’m still new at FA although a part of me feels as if I’ve had it since I was a little girl but trying to remove the negative messages in my head about self and about food is still ongoing. If I came to the “fatosphere” and found it diet friendly or wls friendly I would be mordified! I’ve very happy as it is now and it has helped me and others, thank you!!! Nancy.
w00t
Required reading!
SarahTX, I like the way you think. There’s definitely some wiggle room (I actually fall on the side of the sex-positive, pro-porn feminists) but at the end of the day, saying something or another is fat-pos because we need the personal validation of our individual choices just doesn’t work.
And that’s what it comes down to, I think. People – especially women – are trained to be uncomfortable with conflict and being The Decider, so to speak. And other people want so badly for their decisions and choices to be universally validated. Fat Activism rejects the whole culture that has grown up around dieting and that’s a terrifying thing for people who are so invested in it.
And thank you to the rest of y’all! I appreciate your comments. Peggy, I especially dig your pigment-mixing analogy. That’s damn apt.
We stand for fat positivity. For rejecting the constant barrage of societal messages telling us we’re defective, worth less, hideous, deformed, and a plethora of other adjectives. We stand for taking care of your own health, whatever your personal definition of that is and without it being a relative meter stick for defining your worth as a human being. We stand for doctors treating us with dignity and care instead of with weight loss pamphlets and canned speeches. We stand for goddamn options when it comes to clothes, ffs.
Damn straight. And I’d like to add that when we do these things, life improves for everybody. Take away the stigma, the phobia, the mystique, if you will, of being fat; de-moralise the issue of health; give people back autonomy over their own bodies; recognise and celebrate natural diversity and it’s win win all round.
Unless you’re Me Me Roth, obviously.
Exactly exactly exactly.
There is a difference between “you can’t do that” and “this isn’t the place to talk about that.” A biiiiiiig difference. Once again, if I only know you online, how the hell am I going to know you’re trying to lose weight unless you tell me?
Now, it might be very different if it turned out that everyone around here was secretly dieting or planning to get WLS, that not a one of us is walking our talk. But in a truly fat-positive space, that’s not going to be happening. I suppose FA-lite — the “your fat’s okay but mine isn’t” thing — has its place, as sort of a gateway drug, but not here, please.
Rotund – I actually sort of regret going to such a strong example
(I’m actually relatively pro-porn, although I no longer try to claim that all porn is woman-positive).
You’re much nicer than I would have been TR. MUCH nicer.
Polite version: The fatosphere does not revolve around you and your life choices. It revolves around fat, and the acceptance thereof.
“When a former activist goes on a diet to lose weight, I may still dig the hell out of them personally and wish them well, but that is not a fat positive action.”
While I get what you’re saying, I’m not sure I can really agree that dieting lessens a person’s being fat accepting. It’s an issue of beliefs (as you said very well in the paragraph about what we stand for.) It certainly says something about their level of self acceptance, but I feel that fat acceptance or being fat positive mean the belief in ideas that have universal impact, not just on our own lives.
(Hopefully that made sense outside my head)
I think that going on a diet to lose weight is a fat-negative ACTION. Fat-positive PEOPLE may choose to take that action (or be strongly pressured to take that action to the point where it’s by far the most workable choice for them–by employers, frex). And if that’s what they need to do, then as a fellow human being I support them.
BUT DISCUSSIONS OF FAT-NEGATIVE CHOICES {generally} JUST DON’T BELONG IN FAT-POSITIVE SPACES. Making a fat-negative life choice doesn’t make you a fat-negative person, but for Maud’s sake talk about it somewhere else, not in a fat-positive space.
Taking a far less significant example: I love baseball and I am a baseball statistics nerd. So I chat about baseball statistics on SABR lists.
But sometimes I have other things to do than watch baseball–I might go to, say, my goddaughter’s ballet recital.
Well, I don’t come on the baseball list where everyone is talking about last night’s World Series game and say “HEY EVERYONE LET’S TALK ABOUT MY GODDAUGHTER’S BALLET RECITAL! BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT I WAS DOING INSTEAD OF WATCHING LAST NIGHT’S GAME!”
To me, talking about fat-negative life choices in a fat-positive space is the same exact kind of rudeness and cluelessness, only about something that’s actually really important.
We wouldn’t put up with it about relatively trivial things: why do we put up with it when it comes to something as fundamental and life-affecting as fat positivity?
I should have said “making a fat-negative life choice doesn’t necessarily make you a fat-negative person” for clarity’s sake.
See, that’s what bugs me about the ‘I’M FAT-POSITIVE AND I’M DIETING!’ people. Okay, you’re fat-positive! Hooray for you! BUT DON’T TALK ABOUT DIETING HERE because THAT’S not fat-positive.
I’m fat-positive and I love death metal, but I don’t think that everyone on a FA board needs to chat with me about my death metal, because that’s irrelevant to fat-positivity.
Exactly! The Fatosphere I wantis inclusive of people regardless of what size they are or where they are on their personal SA/FA journey, but it is very definitely about Fat Positivity – and thus, no diet or WLS talk in the Fatosphere space. Thanks for bringing this to the forefront again and articulating it so clearly.
Thank you, TR, for… existing. And writing things like this.
Linked you, and went off on a tangent connecting this with litcrit.
This is completely fantastic and explains exactly how I feel. There are many people I adore who diet, and I’m not bothered by that, but I am bothered when our special diet-free space has diet and WLS talk.
“The entire rest of the world provides a forum for the voices of People Who Hate Fat and People Who Are Conflicted About Fat and People Who Have Tough Choices To Make About Fat.”
Exactly! I don’t understand the mindset of those who are against fat acceptance for whatever reason to come onto the blogs and push their opinions and thoughts on others. It’s like Night of the Living Dead, except it’s Night of the Living Dieters. I’m not going to go to a Britney Spears fan blog and tell everyone how hard she sucks (she DOES, but that’s a different story alltogether). So why must they? You’re not really going to change anyone’s way of thinking.
And besides, diet talk is B-O-R-I-N-G! There are tons more interesting topics to discuss then how many points a slice of Oscar Meyer balogna is or how many calories you ate over the weekend.
I started to comment, but then it turned into a post.
Short version: yes.
Full disclosure: sometimes I diet, and sometimes I don’t. I have deep ambivalence about it, and that’s something I will work out in my own head, in my own time.
But I come here, because like you said TR, the WHOLE FUCKING WORLD is pro-diet. And with a history of ED, I sometimes start hearing that I am not good enough, smart enough, pretty enough, thin enough, blah blah blah, to the exclusion of all else.
So I come to read the Fatosphere because it reminds me that although I may be ambivalent about dieting, MY WEIGHT DOES NOT DEFINE MY WORTH AS A PERSON. That the number on the scale this morning does not hold as much (any?) power as my warped brain sometimes thinks it does.
I come here because I always learn something. I come here because it is in fact the ONE PLACE I know of where I can be assured that the subject of dieting will not come up, except in posts like this one. I come here because it reminds me that the counting and journaling and all that crap SHOULD NOT BE the be-all and end-all of my life.
So I personally am really grateful for these lines and these rules. If I’m any indication, I think it probably keeps the space safe for more people than you realize.
RE: Lesley – your post made me cry. It gave me hope, and it made me feel like I wasn’t alone. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
@ BigLiberty – I’m humbled that it moved you so much. You’re entirely welcome.
And you’re not alone, none of us are; that’s why we’re part of this movement. We’re in it together.
TR, thank you so much for this post. You really got across why I believe this is so important. Also there is the issue that if you let in some diet talk, then the entire discussion on a blog tends to become a few loud people demanding that we accept that being fat is terrible for you (or at the very least demanding that we accept that dieting is the healthy thing for them personally even if we don’t believe in it generally… my question, like JupiterPluvius’, is why is that being discussed at all), and us trying to argue with them about it on a 101 level, and nothing actually gets done. Fat is one of those Internet Slippery Slopes where you give people an inch to discuss “I’m all about good body image for children, but seriously you guys, that goes out the window when it comes to those really fat kids because their lives are at risk” or “I don’t want to be thin, I just want to lose 20 pounds so I can fit into a size 18″ and they take the whole thing and then there is no fatosphere.
Also, Marste, I agree 100%. I need the diet-talk free space more than you guys know, and I am so grateful for it.
Magnificent, it’s truly up there. Pure catharsis.
Agreed. Not every space needs to include everyone, lest it be called some brand of fucked up. i get tired of the freakouts about “you think im a bad person because i had wls! you wont let me be part of your group because all i can do is talk about wls! im losing my fat community because of my wls!…”
People make decisions to do whatever they need to do with their own bodies: my body, my choice and all that. Go for it. But that doesnt mean there arent other kinds of loss going on as well.
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